Ep 05: Transcript
05. How attitudes towards the death industry have changed with Elizabeth Meyer Karansky of Farewelling
Brooke James: Hi everyone, welcome to the grief coach if it's your first time here we're excited and if you've listened to us before welcome back. You can find us on Instagram and Twitter at @the_griefcoach and if you want to reach out you can do that at hello@thegriefcoach.co. Today we are talking to Liz Meyer really excited she wrote a book called Good Mourning that I read years ago and found really enjoyable and because of her experience with grief which I'm going to let her tell you about now.
Liz Meyer: Hey guys, hope everyone out there is doing well. So I wound up working in this industry after my father passed away and planned his funeral and didn't really like what was offered to me it was very, you know, black or white, and basic it was what color roses you want, do you want lilies or not? And there is nothing creative and nothing personal about it. And so I went in and I change it and we had jazz music playing as people came in. We had the religious teacher from my high school, as I say, emceeing the funeral, because dad was Jewish and mom was Catholic, and so we didn't know what to do about that. And then we have beautiful speeches. And at the end, we had his favorite rock'n'roll music just blasting through this massive chapel. And it was amazing. It was exactly the party that dad were wanted. And so we also threew after party, and at the after party a bunch of people came up to me and said, I don't know how to phrase this, but I had a really good time at your dad’s funeral. And if God forbid, something happens to me. Will you plan mine? And I was 21 at the time, slightly naive and felt the they're had to be a silver lining to my dad's death, there had to be a reason for it. And I thought this was my calling. This was a reason to accept passed away was so that I could become this funeral planner. And mom's response was over her dead body. Fortunately, my mom is still with us. I became a funeral planner. And so I worked in the funeral industry. I have worked in the funeral industry for over a decade.
Brooke: We did something similar for my dad's funeral. We had it at the Jane hotel.
Liz: Amazing.
Brooke: It was great because it feels like you're like wealthy uncle's. Right. We had several people speak and then it was just like a party. I had never been there during the day. So I didn't think there were like windows and definitely had danced on the couches that are in that room late at night. But it just like the environment felt so welcoming. And then we had just like jazz music and he loved champagne. So we just had him flowing and it was like it wasn't fun for me, but it was like, what it made more sense and one of our family members was like, Well, why don't we have this on a church and a bunch of us were like, because that wasn’t dad.
Liz: I think there's so many ways to honor people and you know, I'm hearing your story. I want to be there. That's awesome. But at the same time was like, Oh, that's great that your dad loves champagne. My dad wasn't a campaign drinker. I would have served scotch. And I think that's what hearing stories like this. This is the best way matters and that's what comes out is that I wouldn't have considered the Jane. I’ve never had a funeral at the Jane but that's great. And let me tell you in the future, I may plan a service there.
Brooke: Also I recommend… I don’t think the restaurant is there anymore and we had 40 people, family and friends in from out of town and it was almost like a rehearsal dinner but for the funeral but and it was like people stood up and made toast and was small and intimate and it was really lovely.
Liz: Love. Like, I think that's the thing is that you have to kind of in some way wing it. Yeah. And in some way just accept what works for you. And what doesn't so dad was Jewish, so we wanted to have a some sort of a shiva. But he got a temple. He wasn't religious. So we left our mirror up. We weren't sitting on crates, but we did open our house, right. And by the way, we opened her house beforehand. So it wasn't the time it wasn't the week afterwards. It was just when we came home from the hospital, people were there. And it was it was before social media was before, you know, before time of cell phone. So I guess my brother called a couple people. My mom called a couple of people and they just knew that we didn't want to be alone. Right. And that turned into probably a week starting with the moment we got home of people in our house. And it wasn't ,again, there weren't like the rules of Shiva. But it got to the point where a couple of days into it one of my girlfriends kept you know, my friend just keeps showing up. If I'm home finally said to one, don't you have somewhere better to be, you know, it's a Friday night. Oh, wow. And bless her heart, she turned to my mom. She says, I'm just here for the free alcohol. [Laughs] And it was just so nice. And it was the laugh that my mom and I needed. And I think that's why my friends and family taught me that and, and that's what, you know, I'm so fortunate that my mom, my brother was very supportive and we were supportive of each other was to just say, what we what we need, you know, we don't need to follow rules we need to do what works for us. And we even wound up taking a little vacation, just the three of us for a couple of nights right afterwards because we needed that. And I think that's the important thing is to say what works for you. And what do you guys need as a family as a family that needs to grieve right?
Brooke: Can you talk about for people who haven't read your book? Kind of just briefly the circumstances around his death if it was sudden or expected?
Liz: Sure. So this every time I say this, it kind of sounds awkward, but it's true. He was very sick. And yet, in no way I think he was gonna die. And I think that's actually quite common now is that we're so of the belief that medicine heals, and dad was one of these larger than life people who promised me he would be okay. And because he was so perpetually optimistic he even had me fooled. You know, and that's, it speaks wonders to who he was. Because he wasn't the person who was saying complaining all the time. You know, and even if he was in the hospital, I think in my book, I say it was like getting your roots touched up. You know, he's just sort of part of life was going into the hospital and okay you get fixed up and you come out of the hospital. Right? You know, and I think that's because there it became okay. And it became a part of life. It never was gonna end. And I was ready to accept that way of life, which was every couple of months we visit dad in the hospital. Okay. So he went for a stem cell transplant. And he did say, you know, either this will work or I will get dead. That was the only time he had ever mentioned death. And I said, Well, you know, it sounds really serious. And he said, but don't worry, I'm gonna be fine. This is gonna cure me. Okay. God bless naïveté. And he did well, he took to the stem cells, and he was doing very well. And then one day he wasn't. And I think that's unfortunately a kind of common occurrence for a bunch of bosses that you know, I would take it though. I would take it over years of him being miserable and wait and waiting and impending death. And so it was a surprise. And that's the part that kind of sounds strange to say I was surprised when he died because you go back and if you have a similar experience, but I go back and look at pictures and he looks sick. And yet, I don't remember all that.
Brooke: I look at pictures because my dad's diagnosis to death time frame was six months, okay. And he lost over 60 pounds. And he was so excited because he was always overweight. So he goes this is finally like the body I want. And we were like right but it's not a good reason. He was like, Can you just let me enjoy this? Like, sure fine. And so over the first few months he doesn't look sick, but then around like Christmas. When he was diagnosed in September, he starts to look sick and then you look at the pictures at the end and like I don't remember him like-
Liz: Right like how do we not realize
Brooke: How sick you look, but I look at pictures and I'm like, oh my god. Yeah, like, he looks like the sick version of my dad.
Liz: Right? I think that's the amazing thing is that, you know, as you say your dad was happy to lose weight. My dad went through multiple rounds of chemo. And every time his hair would come back differently. And so my father who originally had kind of blondish, gray, curly, you know, unwieldy hair came back one time with this unbelievably gorgeous, like, silver straight fabulous hair with the perfect haircut and, and he was just glowing. Yes. Like, how hot do I look? [Laughs] again, you you just dad and you know, no, let me go with it. And so then in my mind, I remember this guy who had the silver hair, right? And that's just the image that you have and I was recently going through photos and my husband's mom passed away too. And we were looking at pictures and in one she looks sick. And I says any, it he had the same response we did, which was at the time you don't realize, yeah. You know, you see the before and the after. And it's maybe it's a wonderful trick our brain plays on us.
Brooke: I think it is.
Liz: Yeah. You know, to just totally not realize.
Brooke: It’s like self preservation almost like I this person who I love so much like they can't be this sick.
Liz: And it's fascinating because I don't really I've spoken to a bunch of people as I'm sure you have. And few people have a different reaction. Everyone said I just didn't see it. Then you look at pictures and it's two different people.
Brooke: I'm looking at my uncle came and stayed with us for like three weeks. Well, my dad was in hospice at the end. So full time it was my uncle, my brother, my mom and me and my parents were divorced. For the last two weeks, and my uncle took a lot of photos, and at the time I remember being like, I can't believe he's doing this. And I look at those pictures and I'm like, Wow, he looks so sick. And he but he was like, my uncle was like, it is really important for me that I get pictures of everyone who came because so many people came to visit him. And also, in this like, weird, twisted way, for me, it's kind of like a way to go back in and remember those last days, because I don't know about you, but block some of it out.
Liz: All of it.
Brooke: And so you can like try to find like some good moments, right? And the pictures that he took a lot of the time I was like, I can't believe this. But like let you go there which is a weird gift.
Liz: I'm actually quite envious because my dad passed away in 2006, which was before we really took pictures. It was when you had cameras, it wasn't cell phone pictures. And I remember hearing his voice on my answering machine. Yeah. And that was sort of the voices we kept whereas nowadays, we have been videos all the time. And I absolutely regret that I don't have, especially with my dad. He was always behind the camera dads are like the annoying ones
Brooke: Yeah, he's holding the camera. I heard his voice and I like right after he died or I think maybe when he was sick, like my brother and I both made sure to upload all of the voicemails, but I didn't have a lot. And I don't realize I didn't have a lot of videos. And for weeks when he was sick, one of my cousins was trying to get a video of him saying I love you to me, I'm going to start crying.
Liz: That’s okay, we I cry all the time.
Brooke: But he was like, I can't do that. And I was like, well, I really want this. He's like, why don't you interview me? And I was like, because that's for everybody. Like, I want a video of you saying I love you, Brooke and he couldn’t do it. So I would encourage all the listeners like I hope no one was sick or if someone is sick, but just like take videos like pictures are amazing. But take note of so many of my friends who lost parents like, you miss the voice. I remember having this moment of like, oh my god I'm gonna forget what his voice sounds like.
Liz: I also I don't know if you have this but the random relatives that sounds like them. My brother sounds similar but my dad's brother and one of my dad's first cousins I was recently at dinner with and I just, it's crazy, you know, there are certain genetics that you know, certain traits go to different family members and you know, nobody really looks like him -- my husband kind of resembles my dad -- our child could come out looking exactly like him. Um, but it's interesting because the voice is something and the mannerisms Yeah, I miss the mannerisms. Right after he passed away someone gave us a leather bound little journal and said write everything. And we actually passed around I think my mom has it now. But write the stuff that doesn't matter, the big memories, obviously you’ll remember those. But like write what you're thinking right now. I remember writing something about his nails, that he had this weird one nail that was ridgy. Like why’d I write that? Why did that matter?
Brooke: Because you’d forget otherwise. I think I think there's something again this is this is why both you and I are here is that if anyone can learn anything from and take away just something that makes it easier for them so they're not like us crying.
Liz: But crying is good, I’m a fan of crying.
Brooke: Yeah, I cry everywhere. Less now, but Like when he would, it's like okay, well I cried on Lexington, on Park-
Liz: On the subway, in the shower
Brooke: I would love if you can talk about kind of why you decided you wanted to go into funeral directing, but then that you decided to write a book about your experience.
Liz: So I actually didn't become a funeral director until recently. I worked a funeral home. But didn't... I never really wanted to be a funeral director. Until I then did. I went to business school first and thought maybe I would open a funeral home or have something. I really wanted to change the way we look at funerals. And what I noticed was at the time, so when I started the industry is probably about 2008 ish. And nobody talked about death at all, I was absolutely the social pariah. I'm going into this industry. And I thought maybe if a funeral home was prettier, or more appealing, or offered people to come into play bingo, that maybe there would be more of a conversation and then I want to go in business schools to try and try to learn more about business and how we could change the business of death.
Brooke: Which is a huge business.
Liz: A huge business by the way. And just a side note, I swore to my mother that if she allowed me to go to business school that I would never go into the industry again. This would be the reason I was going to change and and to pivot away from and wound up writing my dissertation on the industry. Yeah, sorry, mom. famous words out of my mouth. Anyway, the more I was removed from it, the more I felt like it mattered. And when I got to business school, there were so many people asking questions. I went to business school in London. And so it was slightly different because there were all different nationalities, all different backgrounds represented. And they were asked me what we did in our country. They were asking me to tell stories, and they would share their stories. And all of a sudden, I realized the power of the word matter. And so I wrote a book about my experience, and made it a memoir. And I wrote about learning about life in a funeral home, and coming to age in a funeral home and-
Brooke: Because you were young.
Liz: I was young, I was young, and it was kind of really important years of my life. That could have taken me in other directions and I watched, you know, friends who had been like siblings and you know, who have always had a very similar journey and a very similar path to me. And I watched them go in very different directions. And to this day, they're still my best friends. But it was interesting that I just couldn't, and maybe you found this to, I couldn't find the same joy in things that had brought me joy. You know, there wasn't, it's almost like you have a calling.
Brooke: And it's almost like how can you talk about something else?
Liz: I always been really into fashion. My mom had several you really like, you know, event planning went in, go into event planning. And I couldn't imagine everyday planning happy affairs for people just didn't work anymore. And the reason I wrote the memoir was to remove the taboo and to say, Hey, you know what, I live this every day. If you can pick up this book and read this, it will make your experience easier. You don’t have to go to the absurd extreme that I did. But read the book and know that if there is humor, you know, there's humor in life, there's humor in death, you know, and it's an industry like any other. And the end of the day, I worked at an office, and I had office politics. And I think that was what was really important to me, to me was to remove the taboo and say, yes, it's okay to walk into a funeral home. Guess what, your curious, any listener out there, if you're curious, walk into your local funeral home. Ask to speak to the funeral director and tell them you're curious. They're super nice. Like funeral directors are really nice. And if there's, you know, nothing that needs to be hidden, they'll let you in and they'll show you around. There shouldn't be taboo. And I thought maybe if I wrote a book and kind of got people laughing a bit, and I say its little happy little sad then maybe people wouldn’t be so afraid and thats always the goal.
Brooke: I think because until you experience it, so many people don't know about it. Like, it's terrifying, which is part of the reason I started this podcast and I think for a lot of people you hear about, like the emotional experience you hear about someone's spiritual experience, but like, what's the actual practical experience? And what are the readings you have? Because like, if you're a type A person, you want to know that you want to know, that makes it easier. Yeah. And so like the episode that we released last week was like, how do you talk to your parents about where their will is? Yeah, because most people don't do that.
Liz: At farewelling I just wrote an article and I did a podcast with my mom. This is awesome. And so Karen laughs all the time- my co founder at farewalling- I write about the fact that my dad didn't leave any plans, and I know what he wanted. And that was one of the hardest parts about planning his funeral. And I don't know if you have this experience, but every decision I made, inevitably I regret And if I made the other decision, I regret that as well. Is that you just don't know. So you have this regret. And so I sort of voice that to my mom, and said what do you want. And originally, she would not talk to me at all. As with everyone, I wear them all down. She finally said to me, at one point, she's like, what a red lacquer casket.
Brooke: And you wouldn't know that otherwise.
Liz: Of course! Red lacquer you will have! and I have found like the lacquer person. But that opened up the conversation to and what else. And what don't you want. And to now mom and I talked about all the time, to the point where if she moves her jewelry in her apartment she’ll call me up and say, Hey, FYI, in case I dropped dead tonight. [Laughs] Your mo does that too? Because I think what a true gift blessing that she's comfortable that she can pick up the phone before going to bed. Hey, I moved my jewelry. You know, it's from here to here. If I die my sleep, this is where it is. Okay, mom got it. Good night. Good night. Like. I can't imagine it otherwise, what if she were thinking that, but couldn't call me. You know, and I always think about, like how grateful I am that she can say hey, heads up and it's not a difficult call. Right. It's a two minute call.
Brooke: Well because we've done all this work to make it a not difficult call. And so maybe we can transition a little bit to fair welling. Now, I do want to be sure that we talked about the change in the industry. But that might fit into this conversation. But as part of the farewelling, you're trying to get people to be thinking about this in a more positive way.
Liz: Karen Bussen and I, Karen’s my co founder, we started a website and she has a podcast as - Farewelling - , which is, the idea is basically a platform by which everything you need funeral related is provided. So we have a lot of articles that are your best friend, the funeral director kind of advice that you wouldn't easily find elsewhere, there isn't the colloquial conversation and I feel like and correct me I'd love to hear if there's otherwise, that there's sort of two ways of speaking about death and dying right now and it's sort of the “Get your shit together.” Pardon? Pardon me, sorry.
Brooke: It’s ok, I swear.
Liz: You know, you're going to die. This is inevitable. Be responsible. Get your stuff together. Or Whoo, look at this creepy death stuff. We're neither of those, right? Sorry, listeners, you don't know what I look like, I look like five feet tall, bitty little thing. And I'm no way goth or anything like I'm pretty preppy in the end of the day. I'm very nerdy. Um, but there's not that voice.
Brooke: And that's what people said to me. I'm like, right there. They feel like there's not a millennial voice right grief and I feel like this is applicable to those outside the millennial audience, but it just kind of like this is what it is. This how you talk about it in compassionate, but like practical way.
Liz: Practical, compassionate, knowledgeable. Yeah, I think those are kind of the to me the most important thing is to get across and empathetic. Yeah. Is that in no way is this downplaying the pain that others are going through. I'm not writing articles saying Whoo, let's go plan a party. No, that's not what we are about when, you know, nobody or not... I shouldn't say nobody... but I know grief. I know pain. I lived it, you know, I'm as authentic as it gets. I've sat on both sides of the table. And I think what really matters is that people's, and this is why I loved your story about your dad's funeral, we personalized everything nowadays. I say you can't even go to a restaurant and order off the menu anymore. I'll have the dressing on the side. I'll have it without cheese. I'll have it with extra and and that's common. Why would or funeral which is the largest celebration of our entire life not be personalized. And so a lot of what farewelling and is about is, you know, we say, celebrating a beautiful life beautifully. And it's not diminishing the severity of the situation. It's just making sure that people know what their options are, that they have options, and that you can personalize
Brooke: And I think what happens with a lot of people is you don't until you live it, you don't realize what your options are, how it works and having your platform you can give people that information.
Liz: Yeah, so we have a lot of articles, we have checklists for people who are both planning for someone else, but also planning for yourself. And what I love about this checklist is, we've spent so much time on these are, you know, quick prints. Is that on the bottom of each thing we leave a spot and say and why. And I would have loved, obviously, I would have given anything for my dad to have given us some guidance. But we've been great for him to say why, you know, if he had said, I really want to play in Pine box instead of a mahogany casket, really tell you why. And he could put it and we'll use our money and go on vacation as a family, or give it to this charity, or have the body donated.
Brooke: And I think it's also having the people who are left to be reading that, like, kind of gives you insight into someone in a way that's really like unique. Yeah, so great that you guys do that.
Liz: It's also you know, there's I, because of my job, I've had multiple people I love Give me like what they want and not when they were sick, but just sort of in general, oh, if something were to happen to me, and unfortunately, in some situations, something happened to them. And I went to their loved ones. I said I know this time, but actually, I have this conversation. And for the most part, the relatives don't listen because it's not written down. And so I think that's the most important thing is: write it down and leave it somewhere. We always say this, leave it somewhere where people know where it is. Don't put it in your will, you know, because people sometimes lock their will up and it's not available for the future so have it somewhere readily available. And if you're a parent, and you have multiple children have it available, so they don't argue.
Brooke: Yeah, like have the conversation with them.
Liz: Yeah. And have the conversation if you can, because, you know, I have a fellowship and thanatology, which is the study of death dying bereavement, and they teach it the older generation actually wants to talk. It's the younger generation that says, No, no, no, Mom, it's, you know, it's okay. So, younger generation out there, talk, let them talk, you know, open the doors. Is the title of my article with my mom is “we talked about death and hasn't killed either of us.” She's still here. And it's a comfortable conversation now, as everything else, right. And that makes everything easier. Everything. It's just knowing that there's that comfort, ease, you know, it's like having your taxes done. You just feel good. Right? Paying that bill, it's just it's it's a weight lifted off my shoulder. I know when something happens. I'll be able to just grieve.
Brooke: And that's how I explained it in the episode last week was if your parents are having trouble or you're having trouble having the conversation, like, explain that it makes it so much easier for the people who are left, right, because like any decision you have to make, like you remember, like, you're like paralyzed.
Liz: I've spoken about this a lot is that I was Very comfortable the decisions I made, but they were hard. Yeah. And I regret some of them. And can I tell you that if I made the opposite choice. I wouldn't know. I think I probably wouldn't regret the opposite choice dude. It's simply the not knowing. And it brings up all these emotions of the one person you want to ask isn't there? And I think that's something that after the grief, or really after the funeral, I went through a lot was I don't know if you did too, is picking up your phone. And realizing you can't call.
Brooke: It’s terrible. He’s still on my phone and in my favorites still. I'll be walking down the street and be like, Oh, I should call him. And then it like it happens really quick. Then I'm like, No, you can't do that. But like the impulse doesn't go away.
Liz: I think I've taken that to what a wonderful person and how lucky we were to have them as the only the only good I can try it. Because I've been there and it's terrible. You know, I think that's the nice thing is how lucky we are that for so many years that was our impulse was to call this I hadn't spoken them in a while. I should call. So yeah. But also along with farewelling, we also have a platform for and provider list. For right now. It's New York, LA and San Francisco and will be expanding, but it's a review and provider list and our preferred listings. And so we try to give people the ability to view multiple funeral homes to find which one works best for them and give a little bit of insight into some they're doing something special and different.
Brooke: Yeah, we got a list from Hospice of everyone in the area and my dad was in hospice at home in Connecticut. And they were great, but we ended up just going with the one that did my grandma's.
Liz: That was the one you know, right?
Brooke: Yeah. And like most, in most cases, most of us are not in a headspace to like, call and do research like, right you can do. I think for the plaque that went on the grave. We did some like price comparison research, or I did. So I know I did it, like I call three different places, but ended up going with the place that did my grandmas.
Liz: I think, yeah, no, that's, I think there's a statistic that something around 70% people planning a funeral are doing it for the first time. Right. And so in that situation, they don't have the infant fall back to go to the place they went last time. And they likely go just what the first name they hear. And there are some really phenomenal funeral homes out there. And it's always been a mission of mine to highlight those. And to say, you know, this can be not a good experience. It's going to be painful and terrible, but there are places that can make, make it as painless as possible and can really help you through it. And, you know, there's some funerals that have grief therapy dogs, there some that allow food if you want to have an event there, and there are places doing different things, and that feel more welcoming than others.
Brooke: If you could talk about in a wave alluded to it a few times of like, seeing how the industry change and how all of our feelings around death have changed what right we'll talk to you about, because I think there's a lot there.
Liz: Before we even started the podcast, Brooke and I were talking and I've been in the industry for over a decade. And when I started, as I mentioned earlier, I was just absolutely the social outcast. And it was not even people thought it was strange. It was beyond comprehension. Particularly for people older than us. So a lot of my dad's friends and family felt almost as paternal instinct to say don't do this. And I don't begrudge anyone in retrospect because these were true concerns of theirs that I was ruining my life. And it was simply because death was a taboo topic. And you didn't go near it, you know, it was sort of, in the same way that we don't have outhouses anymore. We don't, you know, we're not we, you're removed from not pleasant things now, that's the way our life is, is something that's not pleasant we’re removed from. If someone gets sick, they go to a hospital, we no longer tend to the sick in their beds and take care of them while they die. And that has made our culture just so removed. And so they thought, you know, why would you want to do this? And there nobody even would say to me, what about it is alluring? Why are you doing this? It was just an instant you're grieving. This is a horrible mistake. Get out of it. And now those same people, among others that I meet, it's now a “Oh, that's interesting.” Pause. long pause. “I just have one question.” Yeah. And that is biggest difference is there has it and I attest to this mark my word, there isn't anyone that I've ever met, who hasn't come around. And I was holding out for one person. And he finally came around too. Again, an older person who didn't a friend of my father, hw didn't understand it. Didn't want to talk about it until his friend died. And suddenly he needed help. And suddenly it was beautiful, that I could be there and like, be a wealth information. And a lot of it was after the book. The great thing the book did was it made it so that people didn't have to ask me face to face. Was it became approachable and suddenly I became an author. For a while my mother was able to introduce me just as the author. “What does your daughter do?” “She's an author,” Um, but in some way, gave it opened the door and it said, I'm willing to talk about this. Any questions you have for now on the table? Yeah, I'm not sure that I think it was when people would say, Oh, I just have one question. And they were able to say, Oh, I remember in your book, you said this. I have a story. And that's, there's no sentence I love hearing more than I have a story. because number one, I get to learn. And number two, the that's opening up. That's someone sharing a story with me that likely they haven't shared with anyone else. You know, and I have so many people say this funny thing happened. Or you'll never believe what happened at this funeral. And these were funeral for their parents, you know, it's not a removed that they're laughing at someone else's loss, they are laughing at the situation. And by the way, laughter is wonderful. You know, we can all use a little of it. And I have my own funny stories. And I just, I think that's the biggest change is that suddenly, we realize we can talk about it. And I always compare it to the sexual revolution. I say we're on the cusp of this death revolution. And only good things came from the sexual revolution. You have more open conversations, number one, which is what we're talking about right now. You had better health care, more freedom, and more acceptance. And that's all through knowledge. And that's where we are with death is that we're going to have more knowledge, because you can go to site like farewelling and listen to your podcast and learn. And then you can make your own informed decisions. And you don't have to judge you and have to go through this blindly. You just may choose what's right for you.
Brooke: And I think the more and more resources there are, and the more conversation there is, people will be learning about it when they're not facing and dealing with the death. And that makes it so when you are dealing with it, you're like, oh, I've heard this before, right? Because part of it is like, the loss is so deep in so many cases, but then you're also like, Oh, my God, I have to do this? I have to do this? And like having that experience is just another like, Oh, my God, and being able to be like, Oh, I heard this and it's like, less scary.
Liz: And I don't think anyone out there, if you haven't gone through this before is overwhelming, and you have a limited amount of time. So knowledge that you can get in beforehand. And anything you can think about in any conversations you can have, are helpful. Just put it in the back of your mind and I always say if there's any way I can beg you to do it, fill out a checklist, you know, they're free, they're on our website, just download it. I'm not selling anything. I just want to make the world slightly place - people having their plans in place. And I've said this since the interviews that came out after my book, what can we do? Pre plan. Am I even saying you have to go in and pay for your fee and all that's not necessary.
Brooke: I mean, that's so nice if you can because they are very expensive.
Liz: That's a whole other conversation. Particularly if you're if you're in New York listeners, if you're in New York, you can pre-arrange. Check out your state regulations, because we don't want anybody pre arranging and losing anything.
Brooke: But even just putting money aside.
Liz: Absolutely put money aside, just put you in a trust. I mean, there's so many, again, going farewelling because I list them all out. But put money aside and dot that. But most certainly just have your plans in place, that's free. Everyone can do that.
Brooke: People think about like, what is the gift you're leaving behind? And if you can give the people who are left like some peace in this like, devastating time, then that's amazing.
Liz: Let them grieve. Yeah. Cuz that's they're going to be doing a lot that.
Brooke: Is there any other advice for listeners? Any thing else that you think would be interesting for people to hear about? I feel like we could probably talk for a while.
Liz: I think we could keep going. I'm sure as always, Brooke. Anyone can write in. This is true passion for both of us. And I know you guys can't see us but there were tears in both of our eyes. These are honest conversations. And the only reason we're both here is to try and make it a little bit easier for everyone else who goes through what we went through.
Brooke: Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to do this.
Liz: Thank you for having me.
Brooke: Thank you all for listening. You can find us on Instagram and Twitter at @the_griefcoach, or write in at Hello@thegriefcoach.co and we'll talk to you soon. Thanks